The context of this discussion has been eliminated due to privacy concerns. But the points are still valid to the individuals and to others who may associate with them.
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Sabahut: But honestly though, if women have the understanding and emotional capability to do so much thinking, when it comes to such things, it shouldn’t be out of reach or something dream-like for men. So you know what, nah, I ain’t changing my standards, maybe just reach my level if you want to be with me.
Sawera: To be very honest, none of these expectations that you and I set at least for how to behave are unrealistic in terms of expecting too much. They're just usually impossible because they don't put in any effort at all. Apparently they like to quote women have a higher level of emotional intelligence but I don't see that as defense because what's the idea here? One just does so the other won't try to work on theirs? This is basic behavior that needs to change. Because in the end nothing else remains in a human, just who they are does, that lasts more than any other thing most people look for.
Sabahut: THIS. Absolutely this. For men, the only growing they believe in is professional. But that’s not real growth at all. If you think you are lacking the basic things as emotional intelligence, care, consideration, and depth in terms of emotional thought process, then try to work on those, because that’s so important for personal growth on a human level. You being a better professional, with a slightly smarter logical brain, does not really mean that translates into the personal stuff as well. And to me, that’s how I measure and judge maturity. For me, maturity is not only being responsible financially, being street smart, ‘world smart’ or independent. It’s everything else. How thoughtful are you on a human level? How considerate are you? How much do you really care - about emotions, about the connection and relatability between people, relationships? How much effort do you put into making sure the people around you who are close to you, really know that you are there and you care? It’s those things that mark the real sign of maturity for me. Both in a man and woman. And that’s the very kind of maturity men lack the most. Only thing is, it can never be an excuse, because no, you don’t have to choose either or - you can always work on yourself to increase that kind of maturity, while also being mature professionally. Women do it. So it really shouldn’t be an unrealistic ask.
Sawera: The area of personal development that explicitly revolves around all that impacts engagement with others will always be important. It's what bothers us at core. Of course people aren't alike and even in this domain they cannot and should not develop the same way, because here again individuality is key. So some will do wonders in one way or the other and some will struggle while others progressively learn. We'll all be at different stages. But the cognizance that personal growth is vital for both the self and others is essential. It's not a race. Your acceleration isn't key, but at least the effort made is. Because the unwillingness to evolve highlights the boxed understanding of what life is about.
Sabahut: Exactly, and sadly, the most prominent cases are the ones where they just ignore the importance and necessity of such growth, usually retaliating by saying, ‘but I’m bringing the professional stuff on the table…’ okay, great, but that doesn’t mean you get to ignore the personal growth aspect. And as you said, of course it’s very individual and varies person-to-person, and for sure, no two people will be on the same journey entirely, but you at least have to be willing to grow in that manner, at least try, because right now, keeping in mind where majority of the guys are in that aspect, when even ‘trying’ will be a lot, and huge step forward.
Sawera: The very idea that we can ration out growth under gender roles is problematic on so many levels. This isn't even about how two people may be in a relationship and what they bring to the table, though of course you're right, that's how it's termed. This is about how as a human do you deem it appropriate to limit changes in yourself to absolute necessities or areas you need to 'fill in.' Growth in every aspect and form no matter it may shape up for anyone is important but personal growth implies and impacts so much more than the most apparent one. To be honest, it's that realm of growth that impacts you more than others because how you experience life and evolve directly impacts your way of life, your perspectives and yes engagement does influence others but then again it impacts your social life while the choice to accept your irrational behavior rests with them. It's just how the notion that those who have to put up will put up as made people insensitive and ignorant. They choose not to be better because well who cares, not like there's anything they can do about it. And it's true I can't limit this toxic understanding to a gender but at least the society we live in, there's a significant majority on each side of the problem here.
Sabahut: If only the society and the men living in that society started to not see it as a gender specific thing, but rather a human being thing. Because I’ve always despised the whole notion of ‘oh, just try to understand, you’re a girl, so you are more understanding emotionally, guys grow in that aspect “later”’ ummm, okay auntie, but that’s no excuse? And that’s just very narrow-minded? Why that divide? Why that ‘oh, you just “complete” what he lacks’ NO I WILL NOT. It’s not on me, or him too, if we go for a general argument, to complete anything in that manner. Because it’s very basic stuff that very human being should possess, or at least try to inculcate into themselves. It’s these kinds of things, that I cannot tolerate the word ‘compromise’ or ‘adjustment’ with regards to. Because no, I shouldn’t be asked to compromise on something like this, maybe you should change your view and teach your son that it’s important for him to grow in that way, for his own betterment as well.
Sawera: People do not understand the boundaries of the 'wise words' they like to say. Everything is great in one context and absolutely absurd in another. Partners do compliment and to a certain extent complete each other, just like any two people interacting would, because we are all different and for sure lacking in some sense. Lacking but not in a negative context. More like areas that aren't our strengths. It's a given, we all have some and some not. So companionship whether in a romantic relationship or otherwise does allow us to make up for voids. But the problem with inserting this logic everywhere is not understanding yes nobody is perfect but no that does not mean we don't need to work on ourselves. So for something like personal growth, it should always be viewed individually and mutually exclusive to each other because this realm of your persona is beyond your interaction with just one individual. And if you remain stubborn with growth in this area you cannot let it slide as something someone else will fill in for. No. Everyone cannot and should not have to do that for you. Maybe the manipulative kind would know how to behave where and minimize social impact while making one person's life miserable but then again that scope of effects doesn't justify anything. And it's only a matter of moments that others are touched by it too because unwillingness to grow becomes second nature.
Sabahut: And also, the way they start getting offended or start calling you ‘too serious’ or ‘too uptight’ when you make very arguments like these, where you try to logically explain why it is, that differences as such matter when it comes to definitions. Ugh. Like, kindly stop undermining my feelings about this, by labeling it as me ‘overthinking’ or being too ‘demanding’ because YOU can’t see your faults. 🙂
Sawera: It irks me severely that the need to work in improving upon your mindset, ideologies, perspectives, emotional awareness and anything similar is judged by the need of these elements to exist or not. It's true that the understanding is dominated by a misogynistic and patriarchal point of view. But at the heart of the problem it's this hierarchy set in the end where anyone we feel not answerable to, we feel it's appropriate to treat however we will, while perhaps choosing to pay absolutely no regard to them as a person. And for anyone otherwise we behave otherwise too. It's no surprise there's a gender domination there. Yet put that aside too and my concern is how willingly irrational behavior can be rationed to others. And that is independent our understanding of the matter. You can be acutely irrational, and it can simply be a choice. Just because it's defined okay for you.
